Crowdsourcing Logo Design with Contests.

How a once vibrant industry was looted and destroyed by corporate greed and borderline illegal labor practices.

First let’s talk about the concept of crowdsourcing itself. Crowdsourcing did not begin as a way to get a cheap logo or website, it’s roots and early successes are actually in the scientific community.  There have been some great success stories of hard-to-crack problems being solved because they were published for the world to see. With thousands of smart people thinking about these problems, solutions came quickly. Something a research department of 20 people had been working on and getting nowhere for a year would all of a sudden be solved in weeks because someone with a completely different perspective was able to look at the problem in a new way and discover a solution.

Naturally, the business community got wind of this idea. Combining the trend of outsourcing with an open call for submissions, a huge workforce could be mobilized at a fraction of the cost of hiring a single experienced professional. But let’s back up a little.

The term “Crowdsourcing” is generally considered to have originated in 2006 with an article in Wired magazine.  The article cites one of the first industries hit by Crowdsourcing for profit, the stock photography industry. The rise of low cost, high quality, digital cameras allowed for a flood of amateur photographers to make their work available for license for as little as a $1 per image. Many professional photographers who had been earning a living providing photos for ad campaigns of corporate clients, now had to compete with a product that was available for hundreds of times less than what they had to offer.

These photographers that had been selling licenses for images for a couple hundred dollars or more, were now competing with a product that could be purchased for a single dollar. Almost overnight they lost their livelihood. Their product had not simply been commoditized, it had been devalued to the point of being essentially worthless. Alas this is the plight of the modern age, technology allows us to produce things so cheap and easy that many people find themselves obsolete. The same way factory workers were replaced with robotics, and portrait painters were replaced with photographers back in the 1900’s.

Design contest however, are a slightly different animal. While they do label themselves as crowdsourcing, the differences are more than marginal. With a scientific problem, most of the people working on them, are working on them out of pure curiosity and the desire to solve a problem. They generally do not cause many research scientist to lose their jobs or have to work for next to nothing. The stock photography industry on the other hand was decimated, not only the individual photographers, but entire companies that dealt with stock photography were basically put out of business costing hundreds if not thousands of jobs. Why would anyone pay $50 for a stock image they can get for a dollar?

Design contest have a much larger price. The model could never work in any other field, and trying to apply it to one makes the idea sound absurd. The analogy has been illustrated many times, but for the sake of the argument, I will briefly give an example.

For this example I will try and keep the parameters as close to logo design as possible, so lets say, in the context of a design contest, someone with the most minor skills could put together a simple logo concept in under two hours. They have enough training to use design software and have some skill level manipulating pixels.

Ok so we have something that is basically an intangible product, a logo is a piece of artwork, you can not hold it in your hands until you print it on something. It’s not material goods, so you can not really compare it to say, dinner. So it is not fair to say that a design contest is the same as asking 50 cooks to make you a meal, and then you will examine each one and pay one cook for the one you decide to eat. While designers may agree with this analogy, and say that the time they put into designing it is comparable to the food cost, this is a bit of an oversimplification.

So we need to choose something that is a service, purely based on time applied by someone using some specialized tools (such as an illustration or photo editing program), and some education or training in the field who deliver a specialized custom service that does not have a tangible raw goods cost.

The first thing that comes to mind is a doctor or lawyer. However, the education required to be licensed for these professions makes the analogy pointless since no doctor or lawyer would ever agree to taking part in such a ridiculous scheme as to have them all do two hours of work and then 99 of them do not get paid because the client (or patient) is only going to pay one of them.

Tattoo artist don’t fit the bill, since 80 of them doing 2 hours of work on your skin would deliver the goods without the opportunity to take it back. You could almost use a barber or hair stylist, but it would be impossible to get 100 haircuts all delivered in a week.

This is proving more difficult than I had thought, so lets come back to this, I am sure that I can think of a trained group of professionals that would be happy to work for free and compete with 100 other people on the chance that they will get paid a minimal fee for their services.

For now, let’s think about Kathie Lee Gifford. In 1996 she was involved in a scandal involving her clothing line, sold at Walmart, that was being produced in sweatshops in Honduras. Now let’s take a look at a sweatshop. Besides the horrid working conditions, the workers are often very young and living in a terribly economically depressed area of the world. They are paid pennies for their work. Now there are obviously some differences between sweatshop workers and designers participating in design contest. Let’s examine some of those differences.


1) Sweatshop workers usually do not have any other options for earning a living.

Amateur designers can probably find something else to do. They obviously have a computer and internet access so they can probably find some other paying work.

2) Sweatshop workers suffer from incredibly long hours and often dangerous working conditions.
I would venture to guess the designers, while they may work many hours, are probably relatively comfortable and working from home or an internet cafe.

3) Sweatshop workers get paid, it might only be 3 cents an hour, but they receive something.

An average design contest has 117 entries, so assuming some people will submit multiple entries, let’s pick a conservative number and say 80 people work on the project. This means that 79 of those people work for free. If we average an hour and a half per submission, we end up with about 160 man hours of work done without pay. One of the participants will get paid, (usually a couple hundred dollars). Today there are 1605 contest open on the popular “crowdsourcing” site 99designs, contest run an average of one week. So if we do the math, we can see that there are currently 256,800 hours of unpaid work being done each week from this one site alone.

That comes to over a million unpaid hours of work each month! The sweatshop owners are squirming with envy.

Ok, so designers are being exploited on a monumental scale, it’s not like anyone is forcing them to work for free. True! People are voluntarily working for free and undermining and commoditizing an entire industry. No one is forcing the sweatshop workers to work either. So this might be an unfortunate situation but it’s not like it is causing anyone real hardship. Right?

If people are willing to do work for free, the market is going to take advantage of it. The reality can not be denied. And no one seems to see anything wrong with it. The design contest sites are raising millions in venture capital and are the darlings of the media. How savvy and smart the people who run these sites are, a real success story.

This new fad now called crowdsourcing is actually just a rebranding of an old concept that has been despised by creative professionals for years. It’s called spec work. Spec stands for speculative, it basically means you do the work first and then if the client likes it you get paid.

There are entire websites that discuss why this is bad for everyone involved. But crowdsourcing is spec work moved to a global scale. In the past a company might ask 5 designers to create comps before they decide who to hire, this is tempting for designers just starting out and needing work, but making it a global contest multiplies the competition by a factor of 10 or 20.

If the trend continues, the design industry will deteriorate to a level of quality so low that it will be essentially worthless. No one with any talent or skill in design will even consider getting into the field because you can not earn a living.

But to put this in perspective, many of the people who actually use the contest would not pay to have a professional designer do work for them. So while a serious business might budget $4000 or more to come up with a branding package and logo, many of these small business people who are just starting out simply do not have the budget. If they can get a logo designed for $300 they are going to use that service, regardless if they are getting substandard generic work that has probably been pitched to several people with a simple name change, copied from another company, and exploits a hundred people in the process.

So in the end, a client usually receives a design that is not worth the $300 they paid for it, 80 people did work for free and received nothing (none of whom are professional or experienced because if they were they would never do spec work or enter a contest), a real designer loses another customer, and the design industry is degraded to a valueless commodity. Oh and that happens about 1600 times a week.

The funny thing is that I think if you asked the people holding the contest, the person starting their new business, if they would work using the spec model, most of them would say absolutely not. They do not want to work for free, and they wouldn’t consider working for free, how would they get their business going if they didn’t charge? Yet they are happy to have a hundred other people work for them with no compensation.

So what is the point to all this, I don’t really know. I do know that the entire concept has been on my mind a lot the last few months. Full disclosure, I run a website called DesignQuote that services designers, it allows a single client to compare up to eight quotes from different designers, then pick one they like and hire them. We encourage our designers to not do spec work, and we do not use the bidding war model that many freelance sites use. We try to keep it fair for the designers and clients while delivering a quality product to everyone involved. The rise of these so-called crowdsourcing sites has definitely had an impact on our business. It’s hard to compete with a site that offers to have 80 people work for you for free! But I suppose I am lucky since I am no longer a designer competing with an army of amateurs that are willing to work for nothing.

I still can not think of another industry to use as an analogy to show the absurdity of this model. Perhaps you can come up with one?

About the author:
Wesley Warren started his career freelancing in the late 80’s doing graphic design. In the mid 90’s he moved into web design, and in the new century he ran a web development company. He runs several design related websites and writes and occasionally writes an article that complains about things that irritate him.

Get some more opinions on Spec Work

Would you work on Spec?

Youtube Video from Logo Design Love

The hidden cost of outsourcing

There has been a huge trend in corporate America to outsource IT and web development work overseas because of the drastically lower rates that people will work for in countries like India, South America and eastern Europe. (This is different than Design Contest and Crowd Sourcing.) Large companies have built offices in these locations to enjoy the low cost of the local labor pool, this can help their bottom line. The big difference between a large company using a overseas workforce and small company or individual is that the large companies usually have management in place to keep things running smooth.

Outsourcing can be a good way to go but you are definitely making some trade-offs when choosing an overseas developer, whether you are an American hiring an web design company in India, or in Hong Kong hiring a American designer. With the advent of VoIP and the web, its easier than ever to work with people abroad, however there are several issues that have ruined projects and forced clients to walk away just having to eat the loss of time and money.

Pros and Cons of Outsourcing


  • Lower Rate
  • Larger Pool of Experience per dollar
  • Overseas team can work while you sleep

  • Language Barrier
  • Time Zone Difference
  • Accountability

Lower Rate

You will notice that I use the word Rate here and not cost. This is very important. While many overseas workers will work for what equates to essentially minimum wage in the United States, just like any low paid worker you will be trading off experience and skill for a lower per hour rate. This does not always equal a lower bottom line! There really is no substitue for experience. You probably wouldn’t hire an overseas architect at $15 an hour to design your home, and if your website is going to be your main business portal then it’s just as important! On the otherhand, if you just needed a storage shed in your backyard, there probably isn’t much point in paying an expert architect $10,000 to design it when you could outsource the project for $1000.

So, with that said, if you have a complex project that you are planing on outsourcing then you would be best advised to hire a US based consultant with experience managing an overseas team, it will save you money in the long run.

Here are a few of the issues that may arise when working with an overseas firm.

Time difference:

At 2PM here in the states its around 11PM in India. Its not always easy to get someone on the phone. Often you have to wait 24 hours for a reply to your email.

Language Barrier:

While an overseas designer may be able to communicate verbally with pasable English, the real problem is often the business concept and more abstract ideas. I have seen clients that were simply unable to communicate the concepts of their business with an overseas developer. I think it is more of a cultural difference than a simple language problem.

Missed Deadlines:

I have been approached by several clients who come to me and say. I hired this developer in (some other country) and its been a year and the site is still not working. Either the designer took another job or had some other issue that is keeping them from finishing your project. When your only paying someone $8 an hour to do technical work, it’s very easy for them to find better pay or not make time for it. While it may be a better wage than they can get locally, if they are talented they should be able to find better paying work.


I have heard some horror stories from clients who have paid deposits only to get a small portion of work done, then the company disappears! Luckily most designers overseas only charge once the work is delivered. However, if you have a dispute about the quality of work, or the product they delivered, you may find yourself holding the bag as these businesses are out of the US courts jurisdiction.

Comparing Bids and Proposals

If you are planning a web design project, you can post your project on DesignQuote and get up to eight free bids from developers in your local area, the entire US or worldwide! DesignQuote is the worlds largest creative marketplace and has over 44,000 designers registered globally. They have helped more than 4000 people find the right designer. Just post the details of your RFP (Request for Propsal) and then choose the designers you want to receive bids from.


Planning on getting a web site designed? Then you should read how much should a website cost?
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Magneto Review

E-commerce Shopping Cart Reviews | Home

Platform: PHP / MySQL
Price: Basic Edition is Free Opensource
Download Link:
Hire a programmer to install Magneto.

Unfortunately, Magento is not a turnkey solution. Out of the box, Magento is a demo. Your site and emails are, by default, splattered with references to “demo store”, which is sure to uninspire confidence with your customers.

This article is a rough attempt at documenting everything that is required to remove the “Demo” references, and get a store production ready. If you find any mistakes, feel free to correct them in the wiki.

Magento has come a long way in this regard since the original posting of this article. Magento 1.4 fixes the worst of the original issues. As a result, only Magento 1.4 (and above) are covered by this article now. Read more on the magneto wiki.

Also check out the Zen Cart Review and E-commerce guide.

A Review of Magento

What is Magento?

Magento is an open source ecommerce platform, produced by a team of developers who go by the name Verian. Unlike most other open source ecommerce solutions, Magento was designed from the ground up to be secure, robust, scalable and search engine friendly. In fact, Magento is possibly the only open source shopping cart, which was designed from scratch, as opposed to evolving as a development fork from another software product. Magento was a long time in development, and much was expected of this package upon release, so how do things shape up now that Magento has been available for some time? Is it really as good as it was supposed to be, or was it mostly hype? Read on and find out.

Under the Hood

Magento uses the usual PHP and MySQL setup, making it suitable for use on even the most budget of hosting solutions. However, if you need secure (HTTPS) commerce, then make sure your host can provide such services. If Magento uses such a tried and tested (and some would say old) technology platform, why is it considered so cutting edge? Quite simply, Magento goes above and beyond every other free shopping cart out there. Offering an entirely modular system, which can be used for vending anything. The backend is rather daunting at first, Magento comes with a full range of ecommerce features, this really is not a shopping cart for the feint hearted. However steep the learning curve is, it is entirely worthwhile, as choosing Magento as your shopping cart will mean you will never have to change your software down the line, as you find your current solution lacking.

Magento does it all, it does it well, but it is not simple for the newcomer to ecommerce. Nowhere is this more in evidence than in getting your catalogue onto your home page. Out of the box, Magento does not do this. Other ecommerce packages will automatically produce a storefront, based upon your product catalogue. Magento does not do this; instead, it aims to be a catalogue management system, with complete flexibility. Setting up and Magento page will require the user to have some knowledge of HTML.

Magento leaves it up to the user to make things look pretty, do not expect setup wizards and automatically generated code here. The trade off is that Magento is really the most powerful open source ecommerce platform out there. Nevertheless, nothing is for free; you will need to spend time and effort to get your store online. In fact, it is highly likely that it would be more cost effective to contract a third party expert to take care of the store setup for you.

Magento in Action

Once you have setup a Magento store (which is not an easy thing to do without professional help), your ecommerce site will outperform just about any other ecommerce platform. Speed wise, Magento has been optimised in the extreme, page loads are fast, database queries are made at lightning speed. All of this is rendered in HTML very quickly, using standards compliant code. Let us take a step back here for a moment. Magento was never marketed as an out-of-the-box solution that could be set up in hours.

It was marketed as a state of the art open source ecommerce platform, which would become a serious contender in the market. It outperforms every other open source solution in every way, and most of the paid solutions. As a shopping experience, when set up properly, it is supreme, but do not come here looking for an eight hour ecommerce site setup. Magento has never proposed to do this. Comparing Magento with the likes of osCommerce and other open source shopping carts is a futile exercise. Magento takes over where these old, imperfect solutions leave off. However, with a cost, and that cost is the effort required to set it up.

Magento in Summary

If you are a business looking for a serious ecomme4rce solution, which will not cost thousands of dollars to implement, then Magento is for you. If you are a dabbler, sitting at home looking to set up an ecommerce site to sell a limited range of goods that may or may not turn a profit, then look elsewhere. Magento is for professional corporate use, and requires an amount of investment in resources to implement successfully. However, if you want the very best in open source, and have a few hundred dollars to invest, Magento is the best solution available. Magento outperforms every other open source shopping platform in every way, and by a huge measure. Magento is open source meets corporate software. Used correctly, and with due diligence, it is an ecommerce platform that can service your business for a very long time to come.

Written by Raine from Rubik Integration. The article reflects the opinion of the author, and not necessarily of Shopping Cart Reviews.

Article courtesy of Shopping Cart Reviews.

Comparing Bids and Proposals

If you are planning a web design project, you can post your project on DesignQuote and get up to eight free bids from developers in your local area, the entire US or worldwide! DesignQuote is the worlds largest creative marketplace and has over 44,000 designers registered globally. They have helped more than 4000 people find the right designer. Just post the details of your RFP (Request for Propsal) and then choose the designers you want to receive bids from.

Planning on getting a web site designed? Then you should read how much should a website cost?

Zen Cart E-Commerce Software

E-commerce Shopping Cart Reviews

Platform: PHP / MySQL
Price: Free Opensource Software (You will need an experienced programmer to install)
Download Link:
Hire a programmer to install Zen Cart.

A list of features of Zen Cart™

  • Allows customers to shop your store 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
  • Easily keep your products/catalog updated – no HTML coding required to add, delete, or modify products.
  • Works on the popular combination of PHP and MySQL technologies.
  • Secure – no one but your administrative personnel can access your customer/catalog data.
  • Easy to install – our helpful installation program guides you easily through the setup process.
  • Nearly every piece of information about your products can be controlled in the Admin area, giving you the ability to fine-tune how your products and services appear to your customers. Features and options can be enabled/disabled quickly and easily.
    • Multiple items can be added to the shopping cart by simply entering quantities and clicking Add.
    • The product type feature allows you to customize information fields and display format for different products differently. Products for sale vs. documents for viewing, vs. music downloads, and the list goes on.
    • Switching from one installed template to another is as simple as a couple of clicks in the Admin.
    • Merchandise Pricing options – single and multiple items can be put on sale. Sale options include percentage-off, fixed amount off, new price, etc. Sales can include or exclude product attributes. You can add or exclude a discount from a special. You can put a whole category or the entire store on sale.
    • Products can be marked as free or Call for Price.
    • Products can be marked as Featured for specific highlighting/attention.
    • Products can be linked and/or copied to multiple categories.
    • Minimum or maximum quantities and units – you can sell one per customer, or require at least four and in multiples of two. You can set requirements on a per-product basis.
    • Quantity discounts can be configured per-product for varying pricing levels or quantity levels.
    • Product attributes can be added, either as radio buttons, checkboxes, drop-down lists, text boxes, file uploads, file downloads, and more. Attribute options can upcharge the price of an item, and an item can have its price completely controlled by attributes. Attributes can be configured as read only so as to provide a features list.
    • HTML-style email supported.
    • Makes e-commerce websites easy.
    • Email can be sent via sendmail, smtp, or smtp-with-authorization.
    • Email archiving supported for audit trail.
    • Low order fees can be configured.
    • Newsletter and product notification systems.
    • Low stock notifications to administrator when inventory is getting low (level can be configured).
    • For the developer – simple customization via stylesheets.
    • Developers toolkit helps quickly locate a setting or text string to be customized.
    • Scalable from small shops to larger shops with hundreds of thousands of products.
    • Track who’s online interactively.
    • Multiple language support.
    • Multiple currency support.
    • See the complete feature list
    • Read the magneto ecommerce review.

Hands on with Zen Cart


Zen Cart is a PHP/MySQL open source shopping cart. It is completely free, and comes with source code which you can freely modify. The software is developed by a community effort. The code is based on the popular osCommerce shopping cart. The goal of the Zen Cart project is essentially to make an easier to use version ofosCommerce which can be installed more quickly, modified more easily and have a more usable configuration out of the box. Being a community effort, many of its users are very passionate. I expect a small group of them will disagree with anything negative said about Zen Cart, be it correct or not, so I may incur their wrath at some points in this review.

This review is based on my experiences while creating an online shop for a client using Zen Cart. As every shop has its own unique needs and requirements, your experiences will vary.


Installation was fairly straight forward. I did get confused once or twice and have to manually tweak one or two files, but I suspect most people will have a smoother experience than I did. As usual, just create your MySQL database first and have the details handy.

Initial Impressions

As with most shopping carts, it comes with an out of the box skin and configuration. This seemed to be serviceable, although the skin wasn’t terribly attractive and it seemed like a lot of options were turned on, making the interface a bit cluttered for my liking. This is a minor problem, as the various modules are easily turned off.

The administration interface is reasonably well laid out and is attractive enough, although the number of options is overwhelming. It was hard to know where to start to set things up as there are so many options, which is a mixed blessing.


Zen Cart ships with a few skins, there are more available for free and commercially. My client had very specific design requirements, and so I needed to get deep into the skinning. Frankly, I was disappointed. If you want to make superficial changes – maybe change the color, the font, the logo, the module headings, etc, then it would be a fairly painless experience. If you want to get deeper into the skinning, expect a significant battle and some mid-level PHP skills required. Skinning is such a fundamental concept I don’t think it should be this hard. For example, one requirement was that some modules have a unique appearance. By default, Zen Cart requires all modules in a column look identical. While I managed to work around this, it was time consuming.

Changing text that appeared in the user interface was relatively easy in most cases, although sometimes some hunting was required, it certainly wasn’t nicely centralized. The admin interface even comes with its own search tool to help find files, demonstrating how common this problem is. The folder structure seems confusing and I found it hard to locate the right file. I’m sure there’s a reason for the structure, but I couldn’t work it out and haven’t experienced this problem with other shopping carts or similar products.

Product Management

There is a wide range of product options. Creating a product via the web interface is relatively straight forward, and there is a free add on called “Easy Populate” for those wanting to create their products in bulk. I didn’t bump into any product features that couldn’t be handled in a default install. For instance, product reviews, stock management and automatic thumbnail creation were all handled easily and out of the box. I did struggle to find out where to change some of these options – once again, the administration interface is a little overwhelming and not always clearly labeled. As an example, my client didn’t want stock levels showing for products, and it took some hunting to find this.

Payment, shipping & taxes

There is a wide range of payment gateways available for Zen Cart. Only a few are installed by default, but many more are available for download. Installing new payment modules (or other modules) is a relatively pain free experience, and while it could be simplified further, is definitely better than most. There is no cutting and pasting of code, simply a matter of copying a few files into the right places. There’s a good chance your payment gateway of choice is supported by Zen Cart.

I was impressed with the shipping module. There is a very flexible range of options, but despite it’s power, it’s relatively easy to use. All the options you’d expect – shipping by weight, by number of products, flat rate, etc, are all easily supported. Your shipping requirements would have to be quite unusual to not work in a default install. Management of taxes was similar, flexible and easy to use, with support for different regions. Configuring taxes was similarly flexible.

An area that could be improved is the checkout process. This process is critical to minimize shopping cart abandonment, and while not bad I felt it could have been made easier. My biggest objection was that it was unclear to the customer when payment was to be handled. While most Zen Cart shops will probably be using a third party payment processor such as 2CO or Paypal where payment is handled on an external site, in the mind of the customer this is still part of the entire payment process, where as Zen Cart gives the customer the impression that payment is a completely separate step. The Zen Cart developers could take some tips from other products such asCubeCart who handle this process much more smoothly.


All the reports you expect to see are found out of the box. Sales, most popular products, customers, order status, etc, are all available. There isn’t any highly sophisticated reports such as sales by search keyword, but that’s not found in many expensive carts either. The conclusion on reporting: don’t expect in depth analysis, but you should have all the essential information needed for day to day running.


Being a free product, there is no formal support. You basically have 3 options. Look through the source code and work it out yourself, post to the forums and hope for the best, or pay someone to sort it out for you.

I found the source code for Zen Cart to be somewhat convoluted. I tried to make a few small tweaks and found it time consuming. Admittedly, PHP isn’t my strongest language, but I found what I saw confusing. I have comfortable hacked other PHP shopping carts with no issues. You’ll need to be at least a mid-level PHP coder in order to be able to work through the source code in a meaningful way. There does seem to be a small range of people able to give paid help. I requested a small modification via rentacoder, I wasn’t overwhelmed with bidders but found someone who did quality work for me at a good price.

The forums are ok. They aren’t the busiest forums in the world, and one or two questions went unanswered. The replies I received were reasonably good and helped me with a few problems.

There is some documentation available. There is an FAQ on the web site which did help me out with one or two questions. There is also a detailed administrators manual available as a PDF file. It is helpful in parts, but mostly just steps through the screens you’ll come across and provides a little bit of detail, the sort of thing that should really be done inline on the site. There is a small “how to” and troubleshooting section, but not thorough enough for my liking.


Overall, Zen Cart is certainly a powerful piece of software. Zen Cart is worth considering if your requirements are very basic and you aren’t very fussy about the look & setup of it, or if you enjoy hacking PHP and are moderately good. However, if you want a complex store up and running quickly and cheaply, I’d recommend thinking twice. Personally I would rather build my business and focus on how I can increase sales than spend hours hacking PHP files (or paying someone else to do it).

Article courtesy of Shopping Cart Reviews.

Read the magneto ecommerce review.

Comparing Bids and Proposals

If you are planning a web design project, you can post your project on DesignQuote and get up to eight free bids from developers in your local area, the entire US or worldwide! DesignQuote is the worlds largest creative marketplace and has over 44,000 designers registered globally. They have helped more than 4000 people find the right designer. Just post the details of your RFP (Request for Propsal) and then choose the designers you want to receive bids from.

Planning on getting a web site designed? Then you should read how much should a website cost?